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In the last month, California enacted a law that could greatly expand the number of bachelor’s degree programs being offered by the state’s 116 community colleges. And Arizona passed a law allowing massive systems like the Maricopa Community Colleges to award their own four-year degrees for the first time. Half of all states now permit such programs.

This week’s episode of The Key, Inside Higher Ed’s news and analysis podcast, explores the still-contentious issue of community college baccalaureate programs.

Debra Bragg, co-author of a recent New America report mapping the community college baccalaureate landscape, describes what we already know—and have yet to learn—about these programs, how we might gauge their effectiveness, and what they tell us about why so many students struggle along the traditional path of transferring from two-year to four-year institutions.

Listen to the episode here and find out more about The Key here.