News, Views and Careers for All of Higher Education
Jan. 4, 2008
The decline of the football program at the University of Notre Dame, where I played in the 1960s, has been consistent fodder on sports radio and fan Web sites in recent months. But the situation has implications that extend far beyond the concerns of the university’s loyal alumni and other Fighting Irish fanatics – and I propose that Notre Dame deal with it in a way that could make it a national leader in intercollegiate athletics reform.
One explanation for Notre Dame’s football meltdown since the mid-1990s — the one I find most compelling — is that it reflects major and irreversible changes in the college football landscape, some of which Notre Dame helped to initiate. In 1984, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the National Collegiate Athletic Association’s monopoly control of the sale of football broadcasts to television networks, thus allowing individual schools to negotiate their own TV deals.
The Irish, who led the charge for free enterprise in college sports, undoubtedly benefited from this decision. But so too did scores of other schools — including upstarts like Boise State, Hawaii, and South Florida — whose increased television exposure allows them to recruit head-to-head with the traditional powers like Notre Dame. NCAA limits on the number of football scholarships and the increase in blue chip players coming out of high school have also created greater parity within the Bowl Championship Subdivision, which features the bigger football playing universities.
As the stunning number of upset victories during the 2007 football season made clear, Notre Dame is not the only traditional powerhouse struggling to keep up with the flood of new entrants and rising stars that now compete for college football’s pot of gold. But academically competitive institutions like Notre Dame have the added disadvantage that their admissions standards far exceed the freshman eligibility requirements recently adopted by the NCAA.
In 1986, the NCAA responded to reports of functional illiteracy among college athletes by passing a rule known as Proposition 48. Over the years, Proposition 48 has gone through a number of revisions, each one further watering down the test score component. Today an athlete with a combined SAT score of 400 — the lowest score possible — can compete and receive athletic aid as a freshman if a high grade point average in high school offsets the low test score.
Notre Dame, like every other football power, lowers its admissions standards for athletes. But even though the SAT average for Notre Dame football players — about 1048 — falls about 300 points below the average for the student body, it soars above the NCAA minimum. Stellar running backs with a combined SAT score of 600 and a B average in high school would be fair game for many other colleges. Academically competitive universities like Notre Dame, Stanford and Duke would be unlikely to consider them.
To try to get the Fighting Irish football program back up to a nationally competitive level, Notre Dame is at a crossroads. It can either continue to fish in a smaller recruiting pond than some of its competitors, thus continuing the slide into football mediocrity. Or it can find a creative way to go deeper into the college football talent pool, while at the same time preserving the university’s academic integrity. Although this latter approach would require courageous and visionary leadership, the model for getting it done already exists.
I propose the following. Using NCAA minimum standards, Notre Dame could offer scholarships to athletes who are academically at risk, including highly motivated students from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds. But these athletes would be barred from practicing, attending film sessions, and playing in games during their first semester in college unless they score at least a 900 on the SATs (or an equivalent ACT score) and graduate from high school with a 3.0 grade point average. They would then need at least a 2.0 to practice in the spring semester.
By putting athletes with academic deficiencies through a one-year academic boot camp, and guaranteeing them a fifth year of scholarship aid, Notre Dame could demonstrate its commitment to them as students and as athletes. If a similar model were adopted by like-minded schools, it could provide the philosophical foundation for a new conference, or at the very least ensure that athletes not only meet the NCAA’s APR requirements but get a real education as well.
The strength of this proposal — and what would make it a good model for all universities to follow — is that while it is grounded in the same logic as current NCAA initial eligibility requirements, it allows each university or conference to raise the freshman eligibility bar to fit its academic mission and student profile. Most importantly, implementation does not require a vote by the NCAA. If Notre Dame takes the lead, other schools might follow.
It is obvious that top ranking academic institutions like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, UC Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA, and USC have to ease up on admissions policies for athletes if they want to compete in the hyper-commercialized, free-market industry college football has become. But it is educationally and morally unconscionable to throw athletes who are academically at risk into this industry as freshmen.
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This proposal by this founding Drake Group member appears to be moot.
That is, many D-1s already commit to Year 5+ graduation plans for scholarship athletes. That is, the colleges commit to graduate the athletes, with fifth-year funding and pre-college tutoring.
I’m old enough to remember the 1966 ND-MSU football game, which ended in a 10-10 tie. If this year’s ND recruit class is an indicator of Charlie Weis’s recruiting ability, any D-1 would love to be ND. Hardly a time to give up on ND and transfer to BC.
If The Drake Group truly believed in change and their goals, they would find the energy and resources to develop authentic, realistic alternatives to the NCAA. That is, to do, rather than to just talk.
Example: right now, the Big Ten Network (BTN) is trying to force the cable industry to accept its carriage demands, which would raise overall cable service prices.
Well, BTN is finding out that some people just say ‘no.’ The Drake Group should do the same.
More on the author:
” .. He is a founding member of the Drake Group, a faculty organization concerned with maintaining academic standards in college sport ..”
Also:
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=591715
Russ Poter, Observer of ND at South Bend, IN, at 7:45 am EST on January 4, 2008
This article has it exactly backwards, letting athletic goals drive academic goals. The only respectable approach for a truly academic institution would be the reverse: choose ALL students by the usual criteria, and then compete in sports at the level appropriate to the skills of the student body.
Dennis, Professor at University of South Carolina, at 7:45 am EST on January 4, 2008
Given that Notre Dame currently has the #1 recruiting class in the nation, preceded by top 10 recruiting classes in 2007 and 2006, this article is off the mark. We should instead marvel at Charlie Weis’ ability to recruit gifted athletes that meet Notre Dame’s higher standards. Let’s give these classes one or two more years to mature before we declare the demise of Notre Dame football.
John English, at 8:15 am EST on January 4, 2008
If the schools with big-time athletic programs really cared about the education of their football and men’s basketball players, there is no way in hell that they would let them compete as freshmen.
Peter Wolfe, Professor of Mathematics at University of Maryland, at 8:50 am EST on January 4, 2008
Joe Paterno has done it the correct way for years, in spite of all the naysayers who would suggest that it can’t be done.
Submitted for your perusal:
http://gopsusports.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121907aaa.html
http://gopsusports.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/120307aaa.html
The record of achievement at PSU over his extended tenure is truly extraordinary.
I hope he lives another 80 years.
Bob, at 8:50 am EST on January 4, 2008
Maybe if there were similar nationally-ranked and popular teams and TV bonuses for women, making them the objects of recruitment (and giving them possible careers after graduation) the SAT averages and level in general could be brought up. After all there are more women than men in many co-ed colleges and they generally fare better in college. The only fear would be in bringing the women down...
LM, at 9:35 am EST on January 4, 2008
First, the number of “academically at risk” high-quality athletes who will successfully complete this challenge in minuscule. It would be a highly inefficient way to get more good football players. Second, why should quality universities jump such hoops for their football programs? If you want to help “at risk” youth, why not help (more of) those who are academically talented, but can’t afford a top flight school, thereby advancing your primary academic mission? If Notre Dame really wants to lead college athletic reform, it will follow the example of the Ivies, and realize that the football is something for their *legitimate* students to do in their spare time, not something the college must succeed at, even at the cost of their academic reputation. Why is it you feel threatened by the likes of Boise State, Hawaii, and South Florida again? If they want to be football teams with a reading list, so be it. No reason for Notre Dame to go there.
Cranky Old Prof, at 9:35 am EST on January 4, 2008
I’m with cranky old prof... Who else does UND make 300 point exemptions for? What is UND’s goal? To be an NFL farm team or to be a great university? Why, for example, don’t we hear the same constant stream of complaints from Northwestern? Is it because that university places less of a priority on football success?
Please, I’m not against college sports. I think they are a wonderful US idiosyncrasy on many levels, but I think everything that occurs on the D-1 level is ridiculous — a huge waste of institutional funds and focus. When I have been on D-2 and D-3 campuses I have found all the same benefits D-1 schools claim, with many, many fewer problems.
Ira Socol, Choices at Michigan State University, at 10:16 am EST on January 4, 2008
First, I have to agree with Peter Wolfe that freshman should not be permitted to play varsity sports and thus gain a year to acclimate themselves to college.
Along with this, however, at least two other things have to happen:
A “guarantee” of three years of varsity eligibility, preceding graduation (No graduate students playing varsity sports under any conditions, including the point made below).
The elimination of “red-shirting” students for anything other than an injury, presumably physical, that temporarily prevents a student from participating.
It should also be understood that all varsity athletes must progress academically at a normal rate.
It’s time to “de-professionialize” college sports.
Horace S Rockwood III, Emeritus Professor of English at California Univ of PA, at 12:10 pm EST on January 4, 2008
Notre Dame has very little academic integrity to lose, since it is not ashamed to continue awarding scholarships to supposedly “amateur” athletes. And it’s not as much in favor of free enterprise as it could be — if it were, it would end its rent-seeking by exempting its football players from the pretense that they are in any way “students” and would start paying them what they are worth. It’s not academic standards (or the myths regarding Notre Dame’s supposed maintenance of standards) that hurt football, it is the (sham) requirement that the football players go to class at all.
Pay players what they’re worth, at 4:30 pm EST on January 4, 2008
I can’t resist the impulse to respond to “Mr. Pay players what they’re worth.” As someone who teaches at Notre Dame, I would like to point out that we don’t pay student-athletes because they are, in fact, students. Football players, like all students, are expected to put their education first—-if they fail in the classroom, we boot them off the team. (I am mighty proud of this fact!). We make high demands of them, whatever their SAT scores might be. Just like other students, football players are required to take 2 math courses, 2 lab science, 3 language, 2 philosophy, 2 theology, literature, history, social science, fine arts, etc. I’ve taught many athletes, and I’ve always been impressed (amazed!) by what it means for each of them to live up to these obligations while at the same time finding time to practice, eat and sleep. Unlike many D-1 schools, most of our student-athletes graduate, just like every other student who attends Notre Dame. It would be absurd to pay them for playing football because what they receive when they finish their studies—a degree—is worth so much more. Mr. “Pay Players” says this is a myth about Notre Dame. Well, he should check his facts. He’s dead wrong.
Jim McAdams, at 10:15 am EST on January 5, 2008
It is always amusing to read these articles that presume Notre Dame is in some class by itself when it comes to academic standards. Notre Dame’s academic standards for athletes are commendable, but Boston College has a higher graduation rate with similar standards and — in recent years — better gridiron performance. As for bowl-going teams Navy is also up there. And while, like ND, these teams didn’t make bowls this year, Duke, Stanford,and Northwestern also have high academic standards for their athletes.
I expect Notre Dame alumni and fans to be a bit starry-eyed but this is Inside Higher Ed. Academic professionals should check their facts before jumping on the Fighting Irish bandwagon.
Bob Vanasse, at 10:15 am EST on January 5, 2008
The article itself is very very deeply flawed. The players who fall below the needed academic requirements usually are very good and want, nay, DEMAND early playing time. The proposed solution fails utterly at this point. Holding out a player because of low academics will maybe allow one or two players into ND per year at best. Beyond that, part of this “solution” does go on at ND. ND is willing to take lower academic students if they show a willingness to work hard. All the football players recruited meet with admissions folks so the recruits can be sized up on their intent to achieve academically. Admissions is willing to bend the requirements if a recruit shows a desire to do well academically.
Also, a lot of these comments don’t really understand what is actually going on at ND. ND is a solid academic institution AND athletic institution. To the guy who commented on players not going to class, you are REALLY REALLY mis-informed. ND football players do go to class, in fact, they GRADUATE. Something most of the 117 D-1A schools cannot say. And, they graduate in 4 (FOUR!) years, not 5, not 6, but FOUR. Sometimes even three and a half.
To the professors, seriously, you are calling out ND for something most schools cannot do. I question whether any of you seriously are professors. If you indeed are, perhaps contact some of the faculty at ND and actually talk to them about some of the ND players. What you all are insinuating is that one cannot be athletically gifted as well as academically accomplished. Shame on you. SHAME! That is what makes ND great. They have intelligent athletes. Many actually achieve greater academic success than their peers. Are there slackers? Yes, but the same can be said of any student body, from Harvard to UC-Santa Cruz.
People think they know what is best for ND. Truth is, unless you experience it (and recently) you have no idea. As such, many of the comments thrown up here do not apply or are mis-informed.
ND doesn’t need a solution. ND went through a rough period of two very poor coaches. Bob Davie and staff could recruit, but couldn’t coach. Ty and crew (it pains me to even recall those few years) flat out couldn’t do anything — recruit or coach. Couple that with ND’s stiff policy of no JUCOs, and there is a period of regrowth currently going on at ND. It is rare for a football player to come in and be competative as a Frosh. By 2009, no commentary will be needed about “what ND needs to do to get back in the game.”
Thanks, but no thanks.
J, Notre Dame Alum 2007, at 10:20 am EST on January 5, 2008
To Horace Rockwood,
So Freshman athletes should be banned from athletics for their first year to get acclimatized? Ok — then music students (or anyone else) cannot be in school bands including marching bands, singers cannot be in any choirs, or fine arts students cannot be in any plays or performances. Sounds a bit crazy doesn’t it? It is the same for sports — an athlete cannot take a whole year off. Practicing for 12-15 months with no games is simply too difficult, unnecessary and unfair. After all most practices are in the 3:00-6:00 pm time slot (max 2 hours or less). How much school work are the other students doing then?
John Boots, at 10:20 am EST on January 5, 2008
Athletic goals driving academic goals is a backward priority? No kidding. ND athletes are not paid? They are “student-athletes". It is time to call on the Semanticists for clarification when receiving a 100% discount of $45K after taxes for an educational service in exchange for performing as an athlete is not being “paid". I think Sack’s article presumes that his audience accepts the above assumptions. Obviously he over estimated the expertise of his audience on this subject. Sack’s recommendation accepts D1 collegiate sport for the entertaining commercial enterprise it is and offers a sensible proposal to mitigate the negative impact it has on the “athlete-students". It is a sensible proposed compromise between the reality of D1 collegiate football to be a successful athletic entertainment product, the needs of the “athlete-students” and the goal of academic institutions to foster academic achievement for all its students. But then again, maybe the glass is not half full but is indeed half empty.
Roy Perry, at 3:50 pm EST on January 5, 2008
Joe Paterno does it right?? ROFLMAO!! 30 years ago Franco Harris would pick courses that had multiple choice exams. Gee, I wonder why??
Loosh, at 4:35 pm EST on January 5, 2008
It’s “amusing” that you overlooked the rather obvious point that the article, while focused on ND, addressed its peer institutions as well (see the title and the last paragraph). Did you bother to read it, or were you just too tickled by the mere mention of ND and decided to get your anti-ND shots in without actually, you know, reading?
As for BC and other good academic schools succeeding in football, note that none of them have in recent years gotten to the very highest level. I’m not sure I agree with the author’s proposal, but it’s undeniable some schools are hampered by the inability to enroll any minimum-qualifying applicant.
Joe, at 9:45 pm EST on January 5, 2008
Roy Perry thinks “a 100% discount of $45K after taxes for an educational service in exchange for performing as an athlete” constitutes being paid. I’d call it not being paid enough, but that’s another matter. And Joe says that “it’s undeniable some schools are hampered by the inability to enroll any minimum-qualifying applicant.” Surely Joe does not wish to repeat the brouhaha that resulted when some branches of the City University of New York instituted open admissions back in the 70s and early 80s. And all of this is by way of response to Allen Sack’s modest proposal for a resolution to the dilemma of what Pay Players What They’re Worth referred to as the “(sham) requirement that football players go to class at all,” and what Sack himself has elsewhere called “the myth of amateurism.” We have to begin with the reality that as many schools as think they’re able to do so have tried and will try to break into the world of big-time college sports, primarily football and basketball, because there’s big money and big status to be made in big-time sports. And most schools probably won’t be able to break through to the big-time without recruiting some players, so-called “student-athletes,” who are far less students than they are athletes. At academically more selective schools, like a Notre Dame or a Stanford, Sack’s proposal would allow for the recruitment of an athlete whose SAT scores may be somewhat lower than the school’s overall average but may still be as many as 400 to 600 points higher than the NCAA minimum score allowable for freshman eligibility. The trade-off under Sack’s Compromise is that such a student would not be eligible during his freshman year and could only participate in spring football if he made a 2.0 average during his first semester. Some people think Sack has sold out, that he’s lowering Notre Dame’s standards, that he’s finally gone too far, blah, blah, blah. I’d say, instead, he hasn’t gone far enough. If, in reality, it is the case that big-time college sports—football, basketball, and baseball—are actually the real-world farm systems of the NFL, the NBA, and Major League Baseball, then let the pros pay for the training of their apprentices. Sure, let Notre Dame have a football team, let the players wear the school’s colors, but don’t make them enroll as students, and let the pro leagues pay for it. In turn, let the pro leagues pay into a special fund fund at the school that will allow the player to attend classes on a 1 to 1 basis, one year of college for one year of professional play at the major league level. This way no damage is done to Notre Dame’s admissions standards, the players get paid part of their professional salaries for their apprenticeship training and if they want it and qualify for it, they can get a college degree, and everyone goes home happy with an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work or an honest day’s play.Robert Berner
Robert Berner, at 2:45 pm EST on January 6, 2008
I agree with Joe. No school in the country can expect to compete in the viciously competitive world of big time college sport without recruiting some athletes who do not fit the profile of the general student body. This is especially true of football programs at academically competitive schools like Notre Dame. Sack is simply proposing that “special admits” prove that they are actually committed to being students by sitting out a year to concentrate on the academic side. By raising the freshman eligibility bar, this system might well drive away athletes whose sole reason for being in college is to prepare for the pros. But those exceptional athletes who are up to the challenge would make valuable contributions on the athletic field while becoming an integral part of the student body. Sack’s proposal deals with the hard reality of modern college sport, not the fantasy world that appears to be alive and well, even among many college faculty who should know better.
Stan, Joe has a point..., at 6:55 pm EST on January 6, 2008
For those of you who are asking which other students would have a 300 pt SAT slack cut, let me offer a few examples:
1) any student who can generate $60 million in grants to the school. That is the figure I saw for ND football revenue. And I assure you, at Notre Dame this revenue does not stay in the stadium. Without football, Notre Dame would be another ‘good’ Catholic university. Not a world class educational institution like it is now.
2)Many schools have outreach programs for inner city or rural youth that give substantial SAT slack. Are they many of these students? Maybe not, but then again how many such low-SAT football students are we talking about and what percentage of the tens of thousands of students at, say, U of Michigan are we talking about.
3) Other students who can offer the schools some gain: such as the children of the elite.
The comments above show a bit of knee-jerk anti-jock bias. A look around will probably show however, that the jocks aren’t the only ones granted slack.
JackL, at 8:55 am EST on January 7, 2008
Allen Sack not only suggests a new, common-sense approach for academically competitive universities to play big-time football without compromising themselves, but an approach that would also demonstrate the adopting school’s educational commitment to academically disadvantaged recruits.(1)
Sack proposes that schools with high academic standards use NCAA minimum standards to offer two types of scholarships to athletes who are academically at risk: 1. Type 1 — Moderate risk recruits that score at least a 900 on the SATs (or an equivalent ACT score) and graduate from high school with a 3.0 grade point average enter the school’s regular program for athletes.2. Type 2 — Greater than moderate risk recruits that fall below the Type-1 academic threshold would be prohibited from participating in football program related activities during their first semester in college and thereafter if they do not achieve at least a 2.0 grade point average.
Sack’s approach would allow each university (or conference) to raise the NCAA’s freshman eligibility requirement to fit its academic mission and student profile. If Notre Dame is the first adopter, it could make it a national leader in intercollegiate athletics reform.
Why does Sack make sense?
Increased television exposure allows previously lower-level competitors to recruit against traditional football powers. Also, NCAA limits on the number of football scholarships have created greater parity among the big-time football programs each of which is competing for ‘food’ in the form of talented recruits as they strive to swim in the ocean of money generated by the college sports entertainment businesses. Consequently, there is ever growing pressure to recruit athletically talented students.
A recent Time Magazine article provides a troubling sketch of today’s college sports programs and their effort to get commitments from ever younger athletes — even down to the 6th grade (2). It’s a shady recruiting game driven by the pressure on coaches and schools to win at any cost in the college sports entertainment business where fame, glory and big money apparently go to the best cheaters (those that cheat, get results, and don’t get caught).
In the process of early age recruiting, the importance of studying and learning is easily lost not only among those seeking to cement an athletic path to college at an early age, but also, and worse yet, on their admiring peers — the recipients of a grossly distorted message that puts athletics way above academics on their age group’s hierarchy of values.
Also, the pressure to recruit athletically talented but academically disadvantaged students and then deny them a legitimate college education grows by the day as does academic corruption that enables the process.
Although all schools supporting big-time football programs lower their admissions standards for athletes, institutions with relatively high academic standards suffer a competitive disadvantage in that their admissions standards usually far exceed the NCAA’s weak freshman eligibility requirements. The NCAA minimalist requirements help promote professional level play by maximizing the talent pool as they simply aim to deny a functionally illiterate recruit from competing and receiving athletic aid as a freshman.
Sack’s approach would certainly ensure that athletes not only meet the NCAA’s Academic Progress Rate (APR) requirements, but get a real education as well. However, the key question is this: Would Notre Dame or any other traditional football power willfully concede a competitive edge to future opponents in what amounts to a step back from the intercollegiate athletics arms race and the likely forfeiture of lucrative media contracts?
The athletics arms race shows itself not in marked improvement in athletic performance (relative to competitors) but in increased shifting of economic investment from academics and research into servicing the arms race itself via building and support programs for athletics facilities including Athletic Eligibility Centers. However, wasteful though it may be, even a partial withdrawal from the race could lead to losing an opportunity to cash in, or keep cashing in on really big money.
Sack’s proposal would make eminently good sense to a rational audience. Unfortunately, the world of big-time college sports is anything but rational. It’s a world where money is everything. Who besides the NCAA, school officials, and diehard loyalists, would ever claim that teams of real students are playing big-time college football or men’s basketball, let alone taking the field in BCS championship games, or, to the court during March Madness’ Final Four?
Perhaps the presidents of colleges and universities that want to gain and maintain high academic standards could be moved to solicit advice from their faculty and others on the place of the value-distorting, sports entertainment business in their schools. They might even go so far as to provide independently verifiable evidence that their recruited athletes are bona fide, degree seeking students. For example, they could publish aggregated (Buckley-compliant) academic data from cohorts of football and basketball team athletes – providing the names of the faculty (along with the title of the courses and course GPA) who are providing university-level courses for many academically unprepared athletes who have a full-time (athletic) job, miss numerous classes, and come dead tired to others (3).
This would be a breakthrough of historic proportions since getting institutions of higher education to tell the truth – making public information on how they do, or don’t, educate athletes has been a long and arduous battle. Stranger things have happened, but just don’t bet on it happening without government intervention.
NOTES 1. Sack, Allen, “A CROSSROADS FOR THE FIGHTING IRISH (AND THEIR PEERS),” Inside Higher Ed, January 4, 2008, http://insidehighered.com/views/2008/01/04/sack 2. Gregory/Aurora, Sean, “Courting Eighth Graders,” Time Magazine, Oct. 8, 2007, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1666283,00.html 3. Splitt, Frank G., “Truth Telling on Campus,” http://thedrakegroup.org/Splitt_Truth_Telling_on_Campus.pdf
Frank G. Splitt, Member at The Drake Group, at 1:55 pm EST on January 8, 2008
Great comments above—whether I agree or not. The only thing I would say is compare apples to apples and it is not fair to compare debate and music to commercialized college sport. Overall, and proven through research, we are not recruiting and taking academic shortcuts with musicians and debaters. Plus they enter college usually prepared to do college work. They may spend a ton of time on their craft—but is it as much as the athlete, is their academic program restricted for eligibility, are they coddled when they are young kids academically just so they can win a few games and then they are so pitifully prepared for college, do they make millions for the university and get nothing—other that a substandard watered down education in many cases? Of course the answer is no.
A first year residency requirement would go far in curing the ills of college sport, along with letting kids go elsewhere to develop instead of being forced to go to college to perform where precious few even care if they can read and write.
Allen Sack has it right—as usual. Write on Allen!!
B. David Ridpath, Asst Prof at Ohio U, at 11:20 am EST on January 16, 2008
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Moving the yard markers — back
One wonders how many non-athletes at Notre Dame were cut 300 points worth of SAT slack to lift them above the admissions threshold at South Bend. But let’s not single Notre Dame out; does any other cadre of undergraduates receive such consideration nationwide?
Abbott Katz, at 7:45 am EST on January 4, 2008