I am shocked by some of the comments that attack Asian-Americans as not having creativity, or solely having academic merit. It is true that some only do have strong SAT scores and GPAs, but that can be said of any race. I personally know both that type of Asian-American and those who have all the passion, creativity, athleticism, etc.

Moving back to Jian Li’s specific case, I can see the point he is trying to make. If a college is holding Asian-Americans to a higher standard because of their race, then that is racial discrimination. I can understand the value of diversity on a campus, but the basis of that diversity has to be made clear. If Princeton, or any other college is using race to determine diversity, they cannot hide behind the shadows of the admission process anymore. Jian Li’s case is forcing them to admit that race does play a role in admissions. While I am a supporter of affirmative action, as an Indian-American, I can also share in Jian Li’s bitterness of this higher standard. As long as one particular ethnic group consistently outscores or outperforms other groups, this ethnic group will have to held to that higher standard. Until the gap between ethnic groups begins to close, this practice will remain, and that is why I accept it. But I still hope that Jian Li’s lawsuit will force colleges to show some transparency in their admissions process, and stop equivocating and hiding information about certain practices such as affirmative action.

To whether or not Jian Li would have made it to Princeton were he not Asian is difficult to say. The only information we have is that he had a 2400 SAT, near perfect SAT II, and a superb GPA. Without the rest of his application, such as the essay, the recommendations, etc. it would be impossible to decide whether, in race-blind process, he would have been accepted. So until someone actually knows the full details of Jian Li’s case, they would be wise not to attack him, but instead to simply try to understand and appreciate what he is trying to do.

Arun Avva, John P. Stevens High School, at 10:10 pm EDT on August 31, 2007

Is this not in itself racist? If one accepts that IQ is distributed evenly across races/cultures then why should creativity not be so distributed?

Reggie von Zugbach, Prof Dr at (Full Professor)Emeritus, at 9:30 pm EST on December 5, 2007

Let’s get to the heart of the issue. Asians do well at whatever they put their minds to and probably do better than most other groups. If the admissions office judged your application based on sculpting the asian student would be among the best sculptors. If the admissions office judged your application on knitting then the asians would be the best at it too. Asians work harder than most other groups to succeed. Anytime “asians” get out of line and become too successful some “artificial method” is used to limit their numbers. I also get the feeling that affirmative action wants to level the playing field because certain minorities didn’t have the same opportunities in elementary school or middle school or even in highschool. Wouldn’t the solution be to fix the elementary schools, middle schools and the highschools? Nah let’s just make the hardworking asian guy pay for it. He won’t mind. They’re used to being discriminated against.

Tom, at 3:05 pm EDT on June 10, 2008

So what else ISN’T new?

Steve S. Rolling, at 6:30 am EST on November 14, 2006

If not Princeton, then Yale??

So he had to settle for a slightly lower rated school?? How many applicants to these elite schools are not coached and managed? Boys State is easy to do, and a trip to Costa Rica is out of the question for most public school kids—white, black, hispanic, and even asian (either pay a coach 2500 or spend it on a trip to Latin America?). How many of those active-for-the-sake-of-the-activity high schoolers had time to take the SAT three or four times, or had the money to go to an SAT workshop? Finally, why is AP such a great thing. I have personally observed these classes and reviewed their content. If they come close to course content and experience of Princeton or Yale, or any other school in the top 200, then I would be embarassed for the top 200.

mdg, at 8:50 am EST on November 14, 2006

It is all too convenient to attack affirmative action in admissions to elite schools. Why not go after all those my-dad-donated-big-bucks admits for a change?

Joe, at 9:11 am EST on November 14, 2006

Coming from a high-achieving community that was also largely asian, I think there can be good reasons for the disproportionately low acceptance rates for many Asians. In my experience, grades and SAT scores are not a perfect reflection of passion. Top-tier schools like Princeton (and Yale as well) look not only for good grades but for an interesting student who will bring something of value to the community. (As an aside, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say that diversity can be valuable to a community.)

A lot of people know someone like this, who was expected to get in everywhere he applied — and then was rejected, shockingly, by one school or another. All that proves is that schools look for different things at different times. Sometimes the orchestra needs that nationally-ranked oboe player more than the nationally-ranked pianist. In almost all cases, it’s ridiculous for anyone to sue a top-tier school like this over discrimination in admissions — and this case is no different.

Lisa, student at Yale, at 10:20 am EST on November 14, 2006

Lisa’s comment was interesting. Remember: the issue is in explaining why Asians need higher scores than other ethnic groups.

Lisa says Asians don’t fare as well because the schools are looking for students who are “interesting” and offer “something of value.” Shouldn’t we be more than a little uncomfortable about that kind of stereotyping? What evidence is there that Asians are less likely than whites to be interesting and that they don’t offer something of value?

Bernardo O’Boyle, at 10:45 am EST on November 14, 2006

Patrick makes a good point.

From the article...

“Demonstrating discrimination is particularly difficult at elite private universities, where thousands of exceptionally qualified students of all races and ethnicities are rejected every year and there is no explicit formula to determine admission.”

Without an explicit (and completely transparent) formula to determine admission, Princeton and other institutions of higher education set themselves up for continuing legal challenges.

Kevin, at 12:30 pm EST on November 14, 2006

I get the sense that Mr. Li’s complaint is rooted in the idea that, somehow, we live in a meritocracy. He need only go down the road from his town of Livingston (a town where a high proportion of residents are college graduates) to Newark to see that this isn’t the case. Not all high schools are created equally, unfortunately, and thus holding everyone to the same standards (as one would do in a meritocracy) is unjust and unfair to those less-fortunate.

SG, at 2:25 pm EST on November 14, 2006

It’s all too convenient for Princeton and their supporters to paint this as another anti-affirmative action challenge. Although the plaintiff cites a study about Princeton’s affirmative action policy, this case isn’t about the validity of AA in general. The point is that there is compelling statistical evidence that their admissions office discriminates against Asian students in favor of white ones. This can hardly be attributed to any recognizable form of affirmative action. Princeton is now left to justify their decision to prefer (on average) white applicants over Asian ones when all academic factors are equal (in the study in question, the authors controlled for the usual admissions boosts like legacy status and athletic recruiting). This may prompt some vague allusions to the complexity of the individual admissions process, much like the ones seen in the posts above. However, once Princeton is forced to address the systematic result of their process, it’s going to be difficult for them to do so without making an ugly implicit statement of perceived cultural inferiority. I would hope their officials have the tact not to accuse Asian students of “lacking passion” or something similarly offensive, but it will be interesting to see where this does go.

Moe Szyslak, at 3:35 pm EST on November 14, 2006

First: Noticing cultural differences is not equal to racism.

Asians (Chinese, for example) score well on tests and achieve well in school far out of proportion to their percentage in the general population. Remember that article about “white flight” in the WSJ, and another one recently here on IHE? The introduction of Asian families to the area ups pressure tremendously, but only pressure in certain directions.

There is a decline in support for art programs. There is a decline in support for sports programs. The math and science programs are the focus of everyone’s attention, and music flourishes as well. But there are only so many mathematically talented violinists that a school is going to be interested in. There’s a point when someone who started a rock band in high school adds more real diversity to the school than another person whose mother twisted her arm into learning piano.

There is a reason why Princeton and Yale both reject fully half of applicants with perfect SAT scores. Someone who does interesting research instead of taking that SAT class might end up with a 2300 instead of a 2400, but still be more valuable to the school.

Now, what I’m not saying: I’m not saying that all asians work hard only because of their parents. That would be not only racist but, more importantly, ridiculous. I’m not saying there aren’t any asians who started rock bands in high school, or did interesting research — I’ve met many, and think they’re just as fascinating as anyone else who starts a rock band or does interesting research.

But saying that a racial disparity can clearly not be caused by anything other than discrimination is ridiculous. There is always room for the impact of culture. If nothing else, many Asians are recent immigrants, and don’t understand the emphasis US colleges place on non-academic subjects, coming from countries where there is a college entrance exam.

Lisa, at 6:25 pm EST on November 14, 2006

The Damage?

Bernardo and gd (among others) don’t see any problem with “academic institutions” using academic measures (primarily) to determine entrance and supposedly liklihood of success (hence wasting less time and money for students and sponsors)?

I prefer the other suggestions: let Princeton and other institutions just spell it out — admissions decisions are no longer primarily on academic merit and potential to succeed at the institution in question.

Discriminations are made on many factors in life, some legal and some not.

Is it too much for institutions of higher education to have integrity and be consistent? THIS is where the PR crisis of higher educations takes root — it is when our actions are not congruent with what we have publicized are our values.

Dr. F. Gump, at 11:15 pm EST on November 14, 2006

Our society discriminates in favor of higher education through a variety of subsidies, direct and indirect. That is because education serves the public purpose. Given that truth, the public has a stake in sending its best to college, and in enabling all to compete fairly for the best colleges. The issue with Princeton is that it has been practicing a form of racial discrimination so overt that it is easily visible in the average SAT scores of the various groups involved in the present dispute. Under a fair system, Mr. Li still might not have been admitted. But neither he nor we know that, because the admissions system appears corrupted by internal Princeton bias. Princeton can easily clarify the error or rightness of that appearance by releasing further admissions data.

Marvin McConoughey, at 1:45 am EST on November 15, 2006

Another interesting way to look at this would be in terms of resources for test preparation. Asian American households have the highest median income of any other race in the United States. If we are to judge merit based upon SAT scores (which seems to be Mr. Li’s only major proof of any tougher standard), then we should also consider each race’s financial abilities in terms of test preparation. Since Asian American households are, on average, more wealthy, then it isn’t too ridiculous to draw the conclusion that the better average SAT scores are due to the better financial resources.

Alex, at 12:31 pm EST on November 15, 2006

Financial

Alex. I suppose you mean Bill Gates’ kids will have the highest SAT. Given the financial resources, it still depend on where you are going to spend it. Just think about it a while, what make Asian have better financial resources? They are minority and most of them from under-developed countries — Korea, China, India ... Are they born with the financial resources? Or are they earned? I believe that with that kind of efforts, even a perfect testing environment will hand them the high scores. Now, resources aside, you sure they are not spending more time on academic work then you are? I am not saying academic is everything. But if your goal is academic, I don’t see anything wrong with spending more time on it. I don’t see Asian complain that there are way fewer Asian in NFL.

I am an Asian and I really don’t think Li’s action is necessary, just think about what’s the chances he’s going to win, and I know a lot of Asian are likely to bite the bullet and wait for the day to shine. But as Nora pointed out, he probably is simply want to prove a point, which by the way, are too common a scene for most American.

Don, at 2:45 pm EST on November 15, 2006

I personally do believe in affirmative actions. I think it’s OK for Princeton just simply comes out to say they support affirmative actions. I just don’t like the way they sugar coated it. They said they rejected a half of students with perfect scores. That’s really a stupid way to open themselves up for people to ask: What’s the percentage of black or hispanic applicants with perfect SAT scores have been rejected.

KC, at 8:46 am EST on November 16, 2006

SG,

You seem to claim that it is not fair to admit students based on academic achievements, but it is fair to punish students from high quality high schools. Well, It is wellknown that families from some cultures put much more importance in children’s education than others, so they work really hard and save every penny to move their homes to better school districts, and the children who don’t want to let their parents down, work really hard to achieve academic excellence. You don’t want to award these hard working people, and you want to punish them. And you call that fair?

BIG, at 6:45 am EST on November 17, 2006

BIG, You seem to misunderstand...I think students who have acheived and worked hard should be recognized. And Mr. Li was recognized by Princeton by being wait-listed — a recognition that the admissions committee was impressed with him and probably would have admitted him, had there been space. But my point is simple: if a student has had a relatively privileged academic experience — meaning strong teachers, lots of academic offerings like AP, music, and art classes, etc..., strong college counseling at the high school, and a wealth of extracurricular offerings — then they should be expected to take advantage of it and present more to a college other than high SAT scores and grades. High SAT scores and 4.0 GPAs ARE A DIME A DOZEN for those of us working at highly selective schools. Thus, we are looking for more: for students who have gained from their high school experience in different ways, but also for students who will contribute to others’ college experiences and the institutions community as a whole. There are plenty of students in the applicant pools at highly selective schools who do get top grades and SAT scores because their family values education yet also are involved in a plethora of school and community activities, making their 2400s even more unique. ALSO, keep in mind that there are other parts to an application that are very important: personal statements and essays, extracurricular involvement, community service, teacher recommendations, counselor recommendations, interviews, etc. Many a time I have read an application from a valedictorian with perfect or near-perfect SAT scores that was simply not compelling because that’s all the application told me. This can be due to the fact that the essays revealed nothing new, interesting or unique about the student; that the recommendations led me to believe that the student would not be an active participant in the classroom; that the student simply knew how to memorize facts, formulas, and words and had no creative, artistic, or experiential learning abilities. It could also be due to the fact that others applying from the same high school were far more interesting! Keep in mind that several other students from Mr. Li’s high school were admitted to Princeton; he was admitted to Yale, but I bet several others from his high school were not. Mr. Li was hardly “punished” for acheiving — but to say that all we should value at our colleges and universities are high grades — which may not necessarily measure how much a student actually learned — and high standardized testing is short-sighted.

SG, at 1:50 pm EST on November 17, 2006

Don, You raise some interesting questions.

1) No, not at all. The nearest it gets is the actual written portion of the writing section, but even that has severe limitations and only counts for a small portion of the writing score.

2) Not that I know of! However, students are given the opportunity to exibit these different types of abilities in their essays; recommendations can also provide a lot of insight in these areas, as can interviews. Some researchers are actually trying to figure this out. This article is great: http://chronicle.com/weekly/v51/i25/25b00801.htm

3) Different institutions are going to weigh these things differently. However — in my experience — I have not seen schools quantify these qualities or “score” students using some sort of rating scale and then use a formula to determine the admit decision. However, when providing a narrative assessment of the applicant and presenting them in committee meetings, these qualities are talked about, often times extensively, to differentiate candidates. Recommendations that provide info about students’ schoolwork (like history projects, science presentations, etc) give us good insight by providing us with concrete examples of how a student approaches their work and learning. Essays often times talk about life-changing events that indicate experiential learning. If a student interviews and that interview is evaluative, it can be easy to assess the level of intellectual curiosity a student has just by talking to them about their classes more so than just looking at a transcript. Together, all of these form more-complete picture of the student and how they might fit into a class, contribute, grow, and learn.

4) I don’t think so, simply because each individual institution weighs things differently to align admissions decisions with their own institutional priorities and missions. For example, a school with strong engineering and technology programs might weigh experiential learning more than say a liberal arts college with strengths in the arts and humanities. Thus, I don’t think consistency is possible.

I do think it’s unfortunate to read some of the comments on here and see how personal people are taking this (although many good points have been raised). While it is almost always hard to reject a student who is clearly bright, I always remind myself that hard-working students who are competitive for admission at my institution are going to get in to somewhere great, just like Mr. Li. Some of the comments on here seem to arguing about which groups have suffered the most in the past and which are somehow getting preferential treatment in admissions. But that’s not how most admissions officers I know look at affirmative action in their work. We are simply looking for smart kids with a variety of interests, talents, experiences, values, strengths, weaknesses, and personalities. In this light, I see affirmative action as protecting the right of institutions to make these decisions in the interest of creating a diverse class rather than a homogeneous one to increase the learning potential of its student body. If everyone we admitted was the same, students would not be exposed to different perspectives and viewpoints both inside and outside the classroom.

SG, at 10:00 pm EST on November 17, 2006

Divsity Damages the College Experience

SG,

You seem to suggest that “creating a diverse class” carries some benefit to students. By “diverse,” I presume that you mean differences in skin color and genital morphology. If I am wrong, please tell me so.

This kind of diversity does no real good, and even appears to do harm. Modern “diversity” programs devalue people by seeing their worth in trivial aspects of their physical appearance, instead of the content of their character and merit.

These programs enhance negative racial stereotyping, as it is obvious that people of certain skin colors (dark) have been placed on campus primarily to “broaden” the experiences of those with other skin colors (white). What a disgrace to all involved. The result is all-black/white dorms, all-black/white fraternities, all-black/white student union groups, and alienation where none existed at the outset.

ACF, at 9:30 pm EST on November 20, 2006

Affirmative action programs can be illegal

People on this board seem to not realize that the Supreme Court case “Grutter vs. Bollinger” had a sister Supreme Court case known as “Gratz vs. Bollinger.” Both involved different affirmative action programs of the University of Michigan. In “Gratz,” the associated Michigan affirmative action program was ruled illegal.

MnZ, at 6:50 pm EST on November 21, 2006

This is funny

Why don’t we just have different application processes that prevent such compications? For example, no name, no sex, no race, no activities that indicate applicants’ ethnical information, anything that relates what we think affirmative action.

Skyline, at 4:50 am EST on December 30, 2006

Not surprisingly, this conversation has steered itself towards one of racism, accusations of racism, and stereotypes- even by highly educated individuals as evidenced by Lisa’s observations. The case of Jian Li and subsequent discussions have provided yet another example of one of America’s largest problems. Rather than continuing to spew invective, why don’t we actually try to do something about it?

Simon, Dr., at 5:45 am EST on January 22, 2007