As a student who did not get very good SAT scores and had limited resources to fund a college education, my community college was the best option for me to continue post-secondary education. I was far better off taking a few courses at CC than taking any job I could find right out of high school. When I transferred into Rutgers University, I met with resistance and ridicule from other students — mostly lighthearted joking about having to complete “the 14th grade” before I could attend a “real college.” While this had an effect on my social experiences in unversity, I did not meet any resistance in the places where it really counted: with my professors. I excelled in my courses and now am applying to graduate school, unlike many of my peers.

Community colleges are a boon to society and offer far more than just a less expensive way to fund the former half of a P-S education. The diversity of their student body, the number of people taking part-time courses, and the lack of residence halls and meal plans (at least at my CC) taught me a lot about self-reliance, money and time management, and removed me from an environment of parties and drinking that would have potentially led me down a path to bad grades and low achievement.

Amy, at 9:10 am EDT on May 5, 2006

VA snobbery

Please note: UVa probably would not have done this if not for the Higher Ed Restructuring Act in VA, which has nine education-related goals. Goal 6 speaks specifically to enhanced transfer and articulation. Further, in order to be certified annually by SCHEV to receive enhanced financial benefits, each institution, including UVa, must meet targets for increased enrollment and completion of transfer students.

Being one of the three champions of what was originally known as the “Charter Bill,” UVa really has no choice but to do this.

Terry M, at 9:20 am EDT on May 5, 2006

Having taught at a community college for nineteen years I am glad to see that “elite” colleges are finally beginning to realize that community college students can compete and succeed at the four-year level. It has been a major “fight” for that to happen. Most of my students come to my college for financial reasons. It is also an opportunity to see if college is what they want.

The student who feels that community college students are not of the same caliber as herself is just wrong. I have had many students to go on to four-year colleges and do a fine job. I have also had many four-year college students to attend my classes and tell me how much harder our classes were than those they took at the four-year college.

I think the old saying,"You can’t know what goes on until you walk in someone else’s shoes” applies to this situation. Attending an “elite” school does not make you a better student, person, or entitled to any more than any one else. It merely means you might have had an easier road getting there.

Don’t judge by where someone comes from. Judge by what they do with what they have.

John H. Humphrey, Jr., EdD, Asheville Buncombe Technical Community College, at 10:35 am EDT on May 5, 2006

The SUNY Transfer Model

Many states would be well served to emulate the model utilized by the State University of New York system, which guarantees a transfer student with an A.S. degree a place in a SUNY four-year school. At least one SUNY study has shown that students transferring to four-year SUNY schools with a community college A.S. are academically better prepared for their junior year than their counterparts who have been at the same schools since their freshman year. At the top-10 community college I work at, our transfer rate is close to 70%, with about half of our students transferring to state SUNY schools and the remainder to out-of-state colleges and universities, both public and private. Our students have been accepted at many prestigious colleges, including virtually all of the Ivies. We seldom hear comments from our graduates about being ill-prepared for the rigors of four-year academics; rather, the reverse is more commonly true.

Robyn, at 12:15 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

response to Lyn in denial

Lyn, Yes, I think community colleges are inferior. I will come out and say it. Unlike you, I prefer to see bad situations for what they are, rather than going into constant denial. First of all, their faculty don’t publish as much as faculty in real schools. Sure, this might not change the “quality” of education in your mind, but for many people, the publication record of community colleges does matter. Second of all, their students have lower test scores. Sure, test scores are to be criticized, but for most people they are what matter (in my family, it is dishonorable to do poorly on a test.) Third, they often enjoy poor reputations amongst graduate programs, therefore, any community college experience must be offset by extremely well-known college experience. Fourth, they have the reputation of admitting people who can’t handle the work.

Now, Lyn, I don’t like biases. I have been the victim of them. Maybe you have, too. But we can’t deny them. Instead, we have to figure out a way to respond to them. Perhaps if community colleges were to prove that their students could do as well as their critics (e.g. by showing that test scores are the same as at real schools) people would find it them less palatable, and it wouldn’t be as much of a dishonor to attend them.

Our world is always competitive. But for people that go to real schools, they know that graduate school is what is necessary to get real jobs. If anything community colleges are fighting for people who can’t even make it in the door of real colleges.

Next, you claim that demeaning community colleges deprives people of opportunities. I say this: the opportunities existed in high school. People that did poorly in high school or on standardized tests blew their opportunities. (Again, this is why, in many families, it is a matter of honor.) You say it is “right choices” I say that in the real world there are winners and losers. Maybe if you realize that the losers are going to community colleges you will stop your blind defense of them and work on making them objectively better.

As to your career choices, we all make choices, and if you are happy, it is fine with me.

I am not against the concept of community colleges as a whole, but I think it is very important that they show the world that whatever they are “producing” is as good as whatever comes out of, or goes into a 4-year school.

Larry, at 2:40 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

Community college issues

Having been on the job market for a few years prior to landing my current position, I can say that many community colleges (actually, most of them that advertised in political science) looked more like high schools than real colleges. This image exists because they require unique application forms, they don’t allow instructors to select the course texts, oftentimes the classes are even taught with a common syllabus (even high school teachers get to write their own lesson plans in many districts!), taking attendance (and counting it as part of the grade) is often mandatory, etc. In other words, they act like institutions that don’t think they have decent faculty to plan and teach courses. They believe that common lesson plans, course syllabi, etc are better bets for student education than each professor teaching to her/his own strengths.

I’d like to think that community colleges provide an education as good as 4 year schools. I’m undecided on the matter, because even though the students seem fine to me, the institutions seem to be structured more like high schools than universities. Do they really challenge students as much as 4 year programs? Do they really encourage critical thinking instead of rote memorization from inoffensive — and therefore uninteresting — common textbooks? I’ve been very impressed by some community college programs, but they often project an image at odds with “the life of the mind.”

Jeff, Assistant Professor, at 4:25 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

Thank you, Jeff

I wanted to thank Jeff for his analytical and careful comment on some actual issues regarding the community college system. We should be having the discussion he suggests, not an argument about the quality of people attending or teaching at such institutions.

I am wondering, where does the directive for set curriculums and pre-determined syllabi originate? Is this something that can be changed at an institution level or would it need to be addressed at a state level?

Melina, at 5:20 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

Response to Larry at the “Real” College

As somebody who appreciates publication and research, Larry, perhaps you should read Moving Into Town — And Moving On: The Community College in the Lives of Traditional-age Students (2005) by Clifford Adelman, Senior Research Analyst at the Department of Education. If you are really interested in learning about community colleges and the performance of their faculty and students, it might help you overcome better understand some of the delusions from which you appear to suffer.

I assure you, this is “real” research which tracked the performance of 25,000 8th graders from 1988 through 2000. According to the report, “The post-secondary transcripts for 8,900 members of this cohort (representing a weighted 2.2 million students)were gathered in 2000...and the [results in the] Moving Into Town [report] are built from the transcript records.”

The report, essentially, blows holes in many of the myths (to which you apparently ascribe) about the performance of community college students.

In response to your comment that community college faculty, “[D]on’t publish as much as faculty in real school,” I’d say that statement is true. Of course, I’m not sure if you are referring to words, articles, or simply weight of paper, but I’ll give you the point. You’ll have to give me the point on a statement I would make that “real” school faculty don’t teach as much. My experience has been that fulltime CC faculty teach about 15 credits per semester. I know that’s far more than I was teaching as a graduate school faculty member.

On your point that CC students have lower test scores, I beg to differ. Actually, Larry, they tend to have no test scores for admissions that we actually look at. You see, Larry, CCs are typically open-door institutions that accept all comers. We test them for placement into classes but, if you are talking about ACT or SAT scores, we simply don’t discriminate because we don’t use those scores.

Gosh, some of your stuff leads me to ask which of your prized articles you have been reading. Please, provide me with the research about poor perceptions of community college students by graduate programs and the need to offset CC experience with “extremely well-know college experience.” Surely, as an academic and researcher, you have these resources at hand.

In regard to your statement about CCs needing to prove their students could do as well as their critics, I’m a little confused. Actually, we don’t compare our students to their critics (whoever they might be). We find out how well they do when they transfer to a 4-year college. Your sentence is really poorly constructed and it is difficult to understand what you are saying. Perhaps, a developmental writing course at your local community college would help. As to your quest for information about comparable performance let me offer a short passage from page 112 of the Moving Into Town report:

“Two successive Oregon state system 6-year studies in the 1990s showed community college transfers who entered four-year colleges with a minimum of 45 credits completing bachelor’s degrees at [a] 62 percent rate...A two-year study of 45,00 upper division community college transfer (with a minimum of 56 credits) to the California State University system...marked a 60.8 percent bachelor’s degree attainment rate — versus 46.8 percent for a parallel group of 53,000 first time CSU ‘native’ students.” (Native students are those who started at the 4-year.)

In the summary “Messages” section of the report, the authors conclude that we need to: ”Recognize that traditional-age students are transferring at even higher rates, and that those who transfer after at least a semester at the community college earn bachelor’s degrees at rates comparable to those who began at four-year colleges.”

Well, I guess that addresses your concern that community colleges, “[S]how the world whatever they are ‘producing’ is as good as whatever comes out of, or goes into a 4-year school.”

Larry, I know you like tests, so here’s a short one for you. What do the following people have in common: Gwendolyn Brooks (first African-American to win a Pulitzer Prize; Arthur Goldberg (Supreme Court Justice); Thomas Donovan (president/CEO of the Chicago Board of Trade; B.R. “Bobby” Inman (retired Admiral, USN, CIA director); Robert “Hoot” Gibson (NASA astronaut); Jim Lehrer (broadcast journalist); Jackie Robinson (First African American to play professional baseball); R. Bruce Merrifield, (1985 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, Emeritus Professor of Biochemistry, Rockefeller University (a “real school”)); H. Ross Perot (corporate executive, 1992 Presidential Candidate); James McDivitt (astronaut); Jeanne Kirkpatrick (U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations); and actors Billy Crystal, Tom Hanks, Jane Curtain, Clint Eastwood, and Morgan Freeman.

Can you see a set-up coming? You’re right. They must have all scored lower than you on tests, dishonored themselves, couldn’t make it through the doors of real colleges, couldn’t get “real” jobs, are people who “couldn’t handle the work,” were found less palatable by others, and, of course, are losers because they are all community college graduates.

Your words, not mine have determined the worth of your opinion.

Wayne Stone, VP of Planning, Quality, and Organizational Development at Waubonsee Community College, at 6:00 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

Apples and Oranges

Larry,

Have you considered that not everyone who enters community colleges is trying to get into a four-year program? Until you look ONLY at those students who apply for transfer (and compare them to the students of the same year in school at the same institutions), you are not comparing like groups.

As to your argument about publication, perhaps you should ask why General Motors executives don’t grow the world’s greatest avocados. It is a requirement, in the bulk of most of the nation’s baccaulareate institutions, that faculty publish with some regularity. On the other hand, community colleges exist for one purpose: education of the students. While we are in the classroom, post-bac degrees in hand, graduate students, often those working toward the very degrees we already hold (and working less time on them than we have classroom experience) are teaching many of the same courses. I call that a chance for superior education.

Jeff,

I would be interested to know which community colleges mandate course materials and specify common syllabi. I have taught for four schools. The only one that specified my texts was a baccaulareate institution. The other three were community colleges.

Andrew Purvis, at 6:45 pm EDT on May 5, 2006

communtiy college quality

Let’s give Larry credit for spicing up this discussion. Although he’s wrong on every crucial issue, his comments have sharpened the debate.

Most important in the articulation discussion is the question of what community college students know at the point of transfer. Apparently they know a lot because community college transfers usually graduate with a better university grade point average than the one earned by students who started at the university as freshmen. Maybe that’s because of the effectiveness of the communities colleges’ much maligned teachers.

Critics who complain about the efficient organization of community colleges usually miss the fact that nearly all community college students are able to study with professors who hold at least the master’s degree. By contrast, at many universities (especially the flagships), teaching assistants provide the bulk of instruction for most freshmen.

Community college critics who value research should start by reading some of what’s been published on community college outcomes. The Department of Education’s Clifford Adelman has demonstrated community colleges’ positive long term effects on their students. The publications of Dr. Ernest Pascarella, Mary Louise Petersen Professor of Higher Education at The University of Iowa, show that community college students learn as much as their university counterparts.

After 18 years of working in a community college environment, last year I moved to a public university and was stunned by what my new university colleagues told me about community colleges. They generally believe that community colleges are inferior even when their own experience with community college transfers is positive. That kind of snobbishness testifies to the fact that even among the intellectual elite, evidence is no match for a passionately embraced preconception.- Gary Davis, Board Solutions

Gary Davis, Principal at Board Solutions, at 5:30 am EDT on May 6, 2006

replies to comments

Melinda, Your family never makes assumptions about others? Or do you make non-arrogant decisions about others? While lots of people say the things you do (you are hardly unique) when pressed, they usually admit that they stay away from shady-looking people, and don’t like “losers.” Some make judgments based on political leanings. Some make judgments based on whether the person watches Fox or reads Kos. But, I am sure that you don’t do any of that, and would gladly date a crack-addict or a Fox-watcher.

To answer your specific question: 1) Professor is considered an eccentric, but “real” job; 2) administrators are generally not considered “real” unless they rise through the ranks of professors (e..g being a dean for housing, is not considered “real”); 3) food service is generally not considered a “real” job

It is true that people look down on others. This is a fairly common trait in society. It is nothing new. The difference between you and me, is that I don’t deny it.

Mr. Stone, Thank you for your defense of community colleges. However, I still won’t let my family go to them, because they will be cutting off a number of opportunities. While community colleges might be swell places, people don’t perceive them as such. That is what matters. To you it is a “myth” but to people that matter, “myths” are just as good as “truth” whatever that is. Community colleges need to stop pounding the table, and start showing their worth on other peoples’ terms – that is high test scores and indicia of being elite. People that don’t have test scores to report are presumed to have low test scores. This might be unfair, but it is life.

Ruth, Legally Blonde is fiction. While many sorority-type girls go to HLS, it is because they know from the start how to make themselves look smart (as everyone else does), not because they study hard for a few hours and magically stop looking like bimbos. Also, bragging about your daughter being “legally blonde” isn’t a good thing.

Melissa, As I have said before, “perceptions” are what matters. When community colleges try to make their own rules and define themselves to be good, most people think they can’t hack actual competition with real schools.

Andrew, We all know that publication might not be the best way to judge quality, but it usually a good proxy for public opinion of quality.

Larry, at 9:05 am EDT on May 6, 2006

I am an adjunct instructor at a large 4 year research university, a smaller 4 year liberal arts college, and a fairly large community college, and I teach freshman composition at all three. I do not lower my standards or expectations at any of the schools. You can pay a very large sum of money to take my freshman level class, or you can pay community college tuition to take my class. Sure, the books may be different, but the instruction is pretty much the same.

adjunct, at 5:40 pm EDT on May 6, 2006

Look folks, I realize that I have made most of the community-college crowd defensive, but it is important that people need to “work the premise.” They need to understand where community colleges fit into the general perception of education: as places where also-rans go, for a second chance at getting into a real school without doing well on standardized tests. I am sure that there are good people working at or teaching at community colleges. Likewise, I don’t think there are too many substantive differences between 1st-year classes.

The problem is that community colleges and their apologists don’t address the very reasons that people look down on them: admitting everything with a pulse; and not convincing the world in general that attending such an institution is not a black mark.

Larry, at 8:35 pm EDT on May 7, 2006

Say something for a change

Larry, you write, “I don’t think there are too many substantive differences between 1st-year classes.” Your earlier comments were overtly about external perceptions of community colleges, not the actual quality, yet you have now strayed onto new turf in suggesting there are differences. I would love to know what these supposed differences are and, for each, whether it is the community college students or the 4-year students who benefit.

Andrew Purvis, at 4:45 am EDT on May 8, 2006

Common course material and taking attendance

I find the objection to common course materials at some community colleges interesting. As a graduate student at the University of Michigan I was one of ten TAs tied to a single supervising professor. One day a week he did a dog and pony show in an auditorium before 700 students. Three days a week we TAs did the actual teaching of those 700 undergrads using the same textbook, syllabus and even common exams. With the big push for assessment in recent years it is accepted that courses should have common learning objectives. Indeed that is often fostered by the 4-year transfer institutions that like to be reassured that all students who take Intro to Psychology have mastered the same material. While common course objectives do not necessarily mean common text and common syllabi, those do not hurt anything. I know from personal experience how instructors actually present the material in the classroom can and will vary.

Also, just because you take attendance doesn’t mean it counts in grading. Most community colleges have significant numbers of students on Pell Grants, other state and federal financial aid, and of course receive tax revenues. For taxpayer accountability it is wise to make sure students are actually attending class.

Mike Dompierre, Asst. V.P. for Academic Affairs at St. Charles Community College, at 1:20 pm EDT on May 8, 2006

One last round

OK, so if I may attempt to summarize Larry:

Snobbery exists. Check. That was in the article. Snobbery is based on perception. Check.The reality is that there are no significant difference between the general education courses at community colleges and those at four-year institutions, undermining any evidentiary justification for said snobbery. Check.

In short, the actual education at community colleges, setting aside the perception, is comparable in every real way to the education at four-year institutions.

Thank you for that, Larry.

Andrew Purvis, at 4:50 pm EDT on May 8, 2006

Facing Down the Snob Factor

I just read the Snob Factor Article and all the responses. This is final exam week at the technical college where I am employed as an instructor.

After reading the article and all the comments, the first thing I think of is my son, Eddy.

Eddy attended kindergarten through second grade in Clarinda, Iowa and 3rd grade through 12th grade at Jefferson High School in Jefferson, Wisconsin. He graduated at the top of his class which earned him a full-tuition scholarship to the University of Wisconsin Madison.

Ed flourished there with a double major in Finance and Econ. That boy of mine was a human sponge when it came to knowledge and had even been asked to apply for a Rhodes Scholarship.

Eddy helped EVERYONE, no matter where they came from or what college they attended. When he was 14, one of my adult techincal college students called my home for help in setting up her new computer. I was not home, but I found out later that Eddy stayed on the phone with this student (female, about 38) for over 2 hours and helped her get her computer set up and going!

Eddy died on Nov. 12, 2002 while a student at the University of Wisconsin — Madison (a big research college) from Type C meningococcemia. This horrible disease took his life in 16 hours.

When I think about all the comments I read about community/tech. colleges compared to four-year research institutions, I sit back and wish we had more people like my Eddy. He didn’t judge anyone based on status; he helped everyone at every level. His best friend was Puerto Rican, and his roommate was a native of Hong Kong.

Big fancy degrees, big incomes, research papers, these are just THINGS.

When I think of “education,” I think of Eddy. He was a genious, but his kindness, his humbleness, his willingness to help everyone are the things that stick out in my mind.

In fourth grade, when I went to parent-teacher conferences his teacher said to me “I hope you don’t mind that I let Eddy tutor Demetrious for one hour a day; no one can get through to him except for Eddy.”

Now someone like that who is willing to help others, educate, care—that is an “educated” person.

It doesn’t matter what kind of school he went to; he was the most “educated” person I ever met!

Gail

Gail Bailey, at 12:15 pm EDT on May 16, 2006

Community Colleges dont charge very much tution, and because of their open door policy, the attract a lot of crappy students.

All students get benefits (other than education)—the campus environment, interaction with friends, discounts on many items, and an excuse as to what they are doing to “improve” themselves. The CC I worked at even gives students access to an XBox on campus.

Crappy students therefore find it worthwhile to enroll.

This increase in enrollment allows CC admininstrators to argue for increases in their state appropriation.

This creates a symbiotic relationship between crappy students and CC administrators. Administrators reach out to crappy students by increasing student frills and offering classes on basketweaving. They also offer core academic classes on questionable terms (e.g. Calculus in 5 weeks).

Grade inflation surely follows to keep up with the influx of crappy students.

In the end, community colleges get a bad reputation and their efforts to provide “equality of opportunity” are nullified. The community college only serves to enrich the administrators, faculty, and solitare-playing staff.

Christopher Bruno, Quality at Community colleges at DMACC, at 5:40 am EDT on May 27, 2006

Reply to Larry

Larry,

Your snobbery seems to know no bounds... People with “real jobs” do not have to make $400,000 or more to be considered productive members of society and have fulfilling lives overall...your assertion is just silly. No doubt you do not make that kind of money, or you would have actually mentioned your illustrious career position in one of your many smug posts and “replies” to others(community college higher-ups) —who are more learned and successful than you, truth be told.

...What culture are you from that being a paralegal or paraprofessional (field of education term)is “dishonorable?” Everyone else in the world (i.e. non-snobs)knows that these are indeed, quality jobs.

Finally, community colleges, like all institutions of higher learning, have shortcomings—a modicum not a myriad, but CCs do produce quality students well-prepared to contribute to society; likewise, most CC students have open minds...perhaps you couldlearn a great deal from them.

linzi, at 3:55 pm EST on November 1, 2006