Also, kids from poor neighborhoods, upon acceptance to “elite” schools should be instructed on how to cherry-pick courses to ensure a high GPA and little risk of hard work. This would make the system even more fair.

(I don’t see too many people caring about white kids from rural parts of the country, but apparently there are not too many of them.)

Larry, at 8:03 am EST on December 8, 2005

other reasons

Rick, Or maybe they couldn’t handle the academics or the culture. When someone quits a school for such a vague reason, I usually think it is because they can’t handle being independant and drank too much.

What amazes me is despite the constant mantra that “elite” schools are liberal, they seem to turn out a steady stream of well-known “conservatives.” Somewhere along the line, you farmers that went to Yale must have had occasion to rub elbows and be friends with our current president, that Bolton guy (who declared his pride in being a conservative) and a bunch of others. Perhaps if the graduates of Yale all became social workers or artists you might have a point, but since most of them are going to law school, it is doubtful that it is as liberal as people might think it is.

Larry, at 10:14 am EST on December 8, 2005

Prof. Robertson,

Considering that several members of my family went to ivies without donating money, I don’t know what you are talking about. Likewise, people whose parents do donate money can still be admitted under the guise that they are “well-rounded” or “motivated.” There is no way to prove or disprove these things.

While it may be true that African Americans do worse on the SATs, this might not be purely a function of their race. It might have to do with their culture. For example, in some cultures it is acceptable to drink or talk about sports. In mine is was forbidden. In mine we had to read a lot of books. Other people grow up not reading. Do these people “deserve” an education when they have very little to contribute. Why should a school that prides itself on providing top-level education people whose pre-college days were spent not doing academic things. Perhaps educating people a more modest record of achievement (i.e. people that watched TV in college) can be done by lesser schools. Can we agree on that ?

The SAT is, indeed, discriminatory, but, at a minimum, it will exclude people that didn’t prepare for it. Preparing for standardized tests, is, at a minimum, an indication of how hard someone is willing to work. What is wrong with that ?

I agree with you that the admissions folks unfairly use qualitative standards. But this seems to impact people differently between schools. Some schools favor children of the rich. Some favor lesbians. Some favor pretty people.

While the African-Americans of yesteryear might have endured discrimination, I am unsure if in today’s world, colleges discriminate against people on the basis of their race, and whether we should discriminate (and cause tangible harm to) against qualified white people in order to make up for the sins of the past.

Larry, at 11:56 am EST on December 8, 2005

Simple Minded

Articles like this one, and many of the following comments I must say, drive me crazy. This is such a simplistic notion of what is involved with attending a very competitive college or university and whether students with lower quality preparation (i.e. most public schools) and less learned parenting can deal with it. Are we worried about the insitutions or the students? For every super-motivated student from a lower socioeconomic b.g. who can survive at Brown (and the central character of “Hide” barely did), there are 10 who cannot. Having grown up in city housing projects, but white, I recall one of my best friends (black) being taken at Cornell and completely and totally bombing out in his first year. Also, as a parent whose kids went to prep school and onto Ivy or Ivy like schools, I am aware of the completely different preparation. Having been involved in numerous life situations, both as a professor and executive, I have also had the experience of speaking to kids from underprivileged b.g.’s who felt completely alienated in an Ivy environment. This complexity requires complex thinking so that the students are helped, and not just held up as PC trophies. It requires a more rigorous analysis of which lower socioeconomic class students might do well, it requires more support while they’re attending, it even requires follow-up afterwards to make sure that self-esteem issues don’t undermine graduates. There is no magic wand as such a simplistic analysis, or so it appears in this article, tries to make it out to be.

Gary, at 2:10 pm EST on December 8, 2005

the one-trick pony

professor robertson —

you repeatedly make baseless claim after baseless claim about admissions to selective institutions and about performance on the sat for african-americans.

first, admissions to ivies have in the main (legacy aside, and this is a small portion) to do only with ability. the proven ability to preform challenging work and the potential to deal with the next level of challenge. the sat is but one tool. in fact, most knowledgeable admissions professionals know that high school gpa is a much more valuable indicator. which leads to the second point...

your very premise that (paraphrased) “any high-school completer should be able to go to the college of their choice” is ludicrous on a number of levels. first, there’s no way to properly amass and allocate resources if you only deal with unfiltered demand. harvard cannot grow (thanks to space constraints) to accommodate the numbers of people who wish to go there. second, even if they and other high-demand schools could grow easily enough, the very quality of the education they provide would be lost if forced to grow (thus obviating a major reason for that demand). finally, if you were to argue that schools could allocate class space to just a few who want it, you are then left with having to devise a means of selection. what would you suggest that means of selection be?

regarding sat and the effect of extra-curricular, privately paid test-prep, there are more than a few papers debunking the claim that it adds significantly to performance. rather than not accepting the fact, you should do some reading on the subject. this is not to blindly defend, the sat, which has its flaws. this is all about you needing to bone up on the subject prior to opining on it.

there are 3,000+ colleges and universities in the us, and varying levels of academic rigor amongst and between them. this is a good thing, as it provides a rational basis for college choice. including people who need remedial help in a class of high-performers punishes the people who are prepared. it is irresponsible to expect a student from a disadvantaged background to succeed in a very rigorous environment when the k-12 years of schooling have left them back. the issue isn’t in the college admissions stage, it goes back to pre-k, k-12 and emphasis on education in family and community. a free-ride and an open door to college aren’t going to reverse 12 years of disadvantage. the cuny experiment showed that well enough.

i would submit that your repeated assertions about college admissions and the sat, coming as they do under the moniker of a suny professor, indicate that you have some professional expertise on the subject. a quick glance at your webpage, along with the substance of your remarks, indicates otherwise. perhaps you might want to revisit the aaup guidelines on academic freedom, particularly the parts about the responsibility that comes with the freedom.

finally, i’d suggest that if you are so passionate about this issue that you do some serious and practical work on the economic and social disparities that lead to the college gap. go teach in an under-resourced school. mentor needy kids. bloviating on a comment board only does so much.

policy wonk, at 2:23 pm EST on December 8, 2005

Non sequitur

Larry,

I do not know of a race – that is not allowed to talk about sports – the Olympic organization and sports world bodies will use their enormous influence upon that race.

Reading a book – you need $ to buy the book, public libraries are not available in economic depressed areas, African Americans are worried about putting the bread on table and paying the utilities bills.

African Americans, do not have the comforts of the TV as you claim, I am not aware of your race either, but I believe your race [Caucasian] has a television sets 1 per 2 persons, radios 1 per 1.1 persons, telephones 1 per 0.47 persons.

SAT ‘preparation = test prep tutoring’ that requires $, African Americans cannot afford that, so financial ability is not an indication of how hard someone willing to work.

Today, discrimination – we are not talking of the past sins – today, denying African Americans admissions in the ivies ‘Students in the lowest income quintile, which had a median annual family income of $15,347, paid an average of $7,552 (22 percent of the sticker price) in 2001-2, reports Winston.’ Since you and several members of your family went to ivies, here is a tangible harm done to African Americans, I believe your family income was more than $15,347.

David Robertson, Professor at SUNY, at 2:25 pm EST on December 8, 2005

Professor Robertson,

I guess that after all you do conflate race and poverty. “Poor” means African-Americans.

Are you really saying that people don’t have access to libraries. That is a load of crap. America’s public libraries are plentiful and well-stocked. Even in “bad” areas you can ILL books.

Black people have TVs. So do white people. Indeed, far too many poor people have TVs, and as a result they ruin their lives by watching them.

Quite frankly, SAT-prep courses are not that good. Indeed, most people I know that scored high (1300 under the old system was never high – 1550 was high), didn’t take prep courses but rather just were smart well-read people that studied. They also didn’t watch TV like blithering idiots.

Anyway, I guess you want to punish people that put the effort in to do well on standardized tests, for the sins of their fathers, by admitting people whose main qualification is being black or poor.

Great. Can I have your job ? My people were oppressed at one point in time. While I might not have the collegiality that was required to get your position, I think that the oppression that my people underwent more than makes up for it. If you disagree you are a racist.

Linda, The PSAT used to be granted with a top score being 160, not 1600, so your son couldn’t have gotten a 1370 on the PSAT. But, otherwise, I agree with you. Test prep begins in kindergarten. If you let your kid watch TV, then you are saying that you don’t care about education, and you don’t care how your kid does. Far too many poor people buy TVs, and therefore educationally abandon their kids.

Larry, at 3:10 pm EST on December 8, 2005

“I cannot accept that Caucasian who takes SAT cold; without prior prep tutoring will do better than African Americans.”

I am a Caucasian who took the SAT cold and received a 1500+ score the first time, without test prep. There were many factors that should have prevented me from earning such a score. My parents together earned less than $15,000, and neither attended college. I grew up in a rural area without a public library. We did not have a computer at home, and I never used the Internet or sent an e-mail until I went away to college. I also worked, sometimes 20 hours per week or more, for most of my high school career to save money for college.

How did I manage to earn this score, then? For as long as I can remember, my parents emphasized the importance of education, that going to college would help me escape the extreme poverty that we lived in. We didn’t have a lot of books in our house, and my parents did not read for their own pleasure, but they made sure they read to me and my siblings when we were younger. Also, because I went to a small rural school, the teachers had more time to devote to individual students. Many of my classmates have gone on to achieve much more than many studies would predict. I think the family influence, the early education we received, and the motivation to improve our lives were major factors in this success.

Therefore, I disagree that wealth and test-prep opportunities account for the differences in scores among Caucasians and other ethnic groups. While differences do seem to be present, they may be a result of different family expectations/influences or, as other posters have pointed out, different experiences earlier in the educational system.

“I have also had the experience of speaking to kids from underprivileged b.g.’s who felt completely alienated in an Ivy environment. This complexity requires complex thinking so that the students are helped, and not just held up as PC trophies.”

I agree with this. I eventually attended a selective state school, and even there, I experienced culture shock. I can not imagine what it would have been like at an Ivy. (I was recruited by the Ivies but did not seriously consider attending one because I believed I would never fit in there.)

Poor Caucasian, at 4:58 pm EST on December 8, 2005

It’s the parents, people

I find it difficult to believe that I may be agreeing with Larry — here’s my two cents:

I’ve taught junior-level students from all kinds of backgrounds — poor, rich, middle-class.

The ones who do the best, are the ones who’s parent(s) are appropriately involved. Not pushing and not at a bar — supportive.

These parents are from all economic classes — they have strong personal values, expect disciplined effort, have high standards, and provide positive encouragement. They do not whine to administrators about “how unfair the system is” — they make sure objectives are understood and met.

As to those students who’s parents are NOT engaged (about 60%) — I don’t know what to do. I try to encourage the students — a lot of work. Sometimes it works. Sometimes not.

Do I think the “government” can help? Not really. Look at Katrina. Look at the fiscal mess in Social Security. You look to the government for help — you’re going to wait a very long time.

It’s the parents, people. Without them — good luck. You’re looking at a lot of work, hands-on. It just can’t be “delegated” to a government agency.

B.J., at 4:58 pm EST on December 8, 2005

Preparation

Perhaps we should touch on the ACT/SAT and quality education as well as preparation courses.

Having gone to a better school makes you better educated. Having been educated on the subjects on the test makes you more capable of doing the tasks it evaluates.

Saying that good (or at least better)education is unfair, or test prep is unfair is somewhat confusing. Admissions would rightly evaluated presant capability and training, not possible capability.

Would you go to a medical provider on the grounds that “I was accepted into medical school but didn’t go?” She or he may have had the capability but did not recieve the training. Many people could have been CPAs; do you have them do your taxes? Why, then, does anyone say “I could have been educated but I’m not; let me into your university.”

By the same logic, the test prep “problem” is called into question.

A more narrow range of performance benefits the students by allowing the classes to adhere to their abilities more closely.

Kevin, Undergraduate, at 4:59 pm EST on December 8, 2005

Points

Larry, the open admissions comment was directed towards Dr. Robertson and his proposal for all with SATs at 1300+ to be admitted to the school of their choice.

Ultimately the question of who is “really smarter” by which you most likely mean inborn intelligence is irrelevant — the combination of education, family input, and personal characteristics generally are more important that what you capabilities are at birth.

That is the root of our problem — many talk about this search as going to look for those who were born at a certain level rather than those who are now educated to a certain level.

Masked has the exact opposite of the goal — the worst students are the least efficient users of investment (ie the opportunity cost of professors time vs. more capable students). Basic math can be taught be someone with only a little more experiance — there are only a few people who understand the state-of-the-art in theoretic math — why should their time be spent doing an algebra introduction course which could be taught by a high school freshman (from a good school) while those who could actually comprehend part of their current research have to learn from those with less skill?

Kevin, Undergraduate, at 7:11 pm EST on December 8, 2005

all this ignores the fact that the SAT is poor indicator of how well any student will actually do in college.

grad student, at 4:35 am EST on December 9, 2005

so the test should be about easy As

Grad Student, Since most students have considerable latitude about what courses they will take in college, are you saying that instead of standardized tests, students should be graded on how well the select the easiest grades. After all, if you rely solely on grades (as many people do) a student is virtually required to select the professors that give easy As, and the ones who will be suckers for whiney stories about why they should get higher grades.

Larry, at 3:03 pm EST on December 9, 2005

The Ivy Leagues are elite institutions that most Americans will never go to. It is more important that high school graduates find a suitable match to their talents, aspirations, and motivation. One can construct a highly successful professional career on the basis of attendance at almost any college. One can even become rich.

As to observations on the poor predictive value of the SAT, or any other of various knowledge and aptitude tests, these are resorted to simply because there is no highly reliable predictor of future college performance. Colleges use poor means of evaluation because they have no better cost-effective alternative. We are fortunate that our fellow human beings are too complex to be fully predictable.

I agree that family support, local libraries, etc. are important. Still, I had none of those in my impoverished and remote rural area, no prior college grads in my family, and a sixth-grade educated father who believed that the bible was the only book one needed to get through life. We did have enough money to supply shoes for the children—in summer. No electricity and, of course, no indoor plumbing.

I feel privileged beyond measure to have grown up in such a family. Only progress was possible from that point on.

Marvin McConoughey, at 1:29 pm EST on December 10, 2005

the neglected middle class? or just unlucky?

Well, my 1500+ SAT score and the 10 APs I had 4s or 5s on got me veeery few admissions offers. Why? I was the lower middle class white charity case at a local prep school in Texas. So my high school classmates were rich and well-connected, and many of them were white Hispanics. Why would a good school have wanted me? They could have taken the kid of a federal judge in my English class or the child of a Mexican diplomat in my history class or they could have taken a poorer kid from a public school down the street. I wasn’t quite poor enough, quite disadvantaged enough, or minority enough; nor was I rich or connected enough. I remember when Stanford gave an info session in my hometown, I wanted to ask whether they had a ballroom dancing program, but they really only wanted to promote their new mariachi club and new study abroad opportunities in Latin America. I just wasn’t the demographic they wanted from my part of the country, I guess. My stellar record didn’t really get me much. Either that or I just had really bad luck. Everyone seemed shocked by how few good offers I got from colleges. I’m in grad school now, so my own persistance paid off, and I’m still in the game. The biggest advantage I had was supportive parents and teachers. I did even better in college than I did in high school, when I finally got an offer of admission from Pomona (along with the most generous financial aid package I could have imagined). Whew. But Pomona was one of many institutions that said no or waitlisted me. I guess I’m just buried in the middle, where hard work and talent just doesn’t cut it for most places. Maybe things would have been different if my single mother hadn’t wanted to be a guidance counselor at an understaffed, underfunded public elementary school, but would I really have wanted her to be just another lawyer?

jaded, miss grad student, at 11:43 am EST on February 8, 2006